Episode 3. Gorilla tracking in Uganda. In conversation with the Nnaabagereka, Queen Sylvia of Buganda

Apr 30, 24

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Ep 3. Gorilla tracking in Uganda. In conversation with the Nnaabagereka, Queen Sylvia of Buganda FINAL. Transcript

[00:00:00] Charlotte: Welcome to episode three of the East Africa Travel Podcast, hosted by me, Charlotte Beauvoisin, author of Diary of a Muzungu and blogger in residence at Sunbird Hill on the edge of Kibale Forest in Western Uganda. Thanks for tuning in.

[00:00:41] And today I have the pleasure – the honour – of introducing you to my very first guest.

[00:00:49] One of the reasons I wanted to launch this podcast was to introduce you to some of the incredible people that I’ve got to know on my travels across East Africa over the last 15 years. We’re talking tourism experts, writers, conservationists, lodge owners, researchers – into everything from elephants to bats to chimpanzees and dolphins – and tourists and people you’ve never heard of, but also the occasional VIP.

[00:01:19] When I was putting together my list of inspiring people that I wanted to talk to on the podcast, I could never imagine that I would get a chance to spend nearly an hour with the charming, warm, and I have to say very beautiful lady. And I confess to having a bit of a fangirl moment when I got to meet our first guest.

[00:01:44] I am thrilled to give a very warm East Africa Travel Podcast welcome to Her Royal Highness, the Nnaabagareka, Queen Sylvia Nagginda of Buganda Kingdom. She is of course married to the Kabaka of Buganda, Ronald Mwende Mutebi II. He is the 36th Kabaka of Buganda Kingdom, which if you don’t know very much about Uganda, it is the largest of the traditional kingdoms. It was established in the 14th century and is still very much supported by millions and millions of loyal followers.

[00:02:28] Uganda has over 50 tribes and several traditional kingdoms, but Buganda Kingdom is arguably the best known, partly because it’s in central Uganda where we have the capital city. The Nnaabagareka is a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations Population Fund, where she advocates for girls’ education. She also has her own Nnaabagareka Foundation, which she mentions in our conversation.

[00:02:58] Our meeting took place in Buhoma, Bwindi Impenetrable Forest, a fabulous rainforest, a UNESCO world heritage site. And we were there celebrating gorilla conservation and the 20th anniversary of Conservation Through Public Health with the trailblazing vet, Dr. Gladys Kalema Zikusoka, who is one of the NGO’s founders and the CEO.

[00:03:23] We spent the weekend with rangers. the gorilla guardians, coffee farmers, and reformed poachers. We had dignitaries from the District, from Kampala. We had over 300 people from the community to lunch, and it was a real celebration of conservation and communities and the beautiful forest.

[00:03:48] The reason that I spoke to the Nnaabagareka is she is the patron of CTPH. She has been since 2005 and she is the first queen in the world to track the mountain gorillas. And in fact she’s tracked them twice and that’s what she will be telling us all about.

[00:04:05] If you’ve listened to the first episodes of the podcast, you might remember that my Kiganda name is Nagawa: bampita Nagawa “they call me Nagawa).”

[00:04:15] I was baptised Nagawa, which means I am the protector of Nkima, the red tailed monkey, and this is a big part of the Buganda kingdom heritage. I love being called Nagawa and I have a lot of fun with it, particularly with the boda boda (motorbike) drivers, who try and overcharge me and give me ‘muzungu price’.

[00:04:37] And I say, “Eh, bampita Nagawa!” And then they normally fall about laughing. I’m saying: please don’t give me tourist price, this is my local name. Anyway, I do have a lot of fun with that. But it does give me a certain affinity, let me say, with Buganda culture. Because I lived in Kampala for so long, I did get to know a little bit about Buganda culture.

[00:05:02] Anyway, it was an absolute treat to be able to talk to the Nnaabagareka and to sense her excitement and her passion and well, without further ado: welcome, Queen Sylvia, the Nnaabagareka of Buganda.

[00:05:20] Welcome back from the forest. I really admire the fact that you just keep going, answering the questions. It must have been quite a tiring day.

[00:05:30] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: It was tiring. It was an early start. Well, not too early. I think we set off at 10, although we got up much earlier. It was a very tough terrain this time around, I must say, because of the steepness of the hill and it was very slippery. However, we could have gone even an hour or two longer than, you know, than we did.

[00:05:55] So, it was more exciting than it was tiring, I think.

[00:05:59] Charlotte: How long did it take you before you found the gorillas?

[00:06:02] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Two hours.

[00:06:03] Charlotte: Right, okay. That’s quite a long time. And you were so lucky with the weather. Did it rain at all?

[00:06:08] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: No, it rained after we got back to the hotel, you know, which was good because it’s already very slippery in there and there were a few falls in my group. I can’t imagine what it would have been like if it rained while we were in there because it was really very slippery.

[00:06:28] Charlotte: You were dressed for the part. I saw you had the boots on, you had the whole kit. And you’ve been here 18 years ago. How different was today from your first experience tracking?

[00:06:40] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Well, this time I knew what to expect, because I had been before. The first time, I was younger then, but not as fit as I feel this time around. I think these days I exercise more than I used to then. And so I went on that trekking – I wasn’t prepared really – to do that long distance, but we did it nevertheless. It took us four hours to see the gorillas and then four hours back in this case, Today we took two hours, but then where we found them was not too far from the base where we had to return. So we didn’t take another two hours; it was about three hours in all. It wasn’t that bad like in terms of, you know, distance.

[00:07:28] Charlotte: I have heard of people being allocated their gorilla family and having the briefing and they come out of the car park and they find the gorillas right there and they are disappointed. They want to search for them.

[00:07:40] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Exactly, because one of the most exciting things also is just the trekking itself because you’re literally going through forests, there are no roads, you’re just moving through in the midst. You are surrounded by trees and just trying to make your way – nowhere to somewhere. You don’t even know where you are. Lucky enough we have rangers because, you know, you can’t go back. Yeah, the streams, the river stream, the thick forests, I think that’s why it’s called the Impenetrable Forest.

It’s amazing, you know. I don’t think I would go there by myself or without the rangers.

[00:08:22] Seeing the gorillas is just amazing, of course but then, that whole trip, that whole trekking is part of the experience. Going up a peak above like 1,800 metres. We didn’t get to the tip of the mountain but, you know, we weren’t that far either, I think, so that was very exciting.

[00:08:44] Charlotte: I’ve been to Bwindi a few times and I remember the first time I came here it was 2009. And we talk about Save the Rainforest, it’s one of these big environmental campaigns that they’ve had for decades around the world. And I came here, and I saw the real rainforest for the first time, and I wanted to cry. It’s just so incredible.

[00:09:03] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Oh, you had never seen it?

[00:09:05] Charlotte: No, I’d never seen it. I’d seen it on TV, and signed petitions to save the rainforest, wherever it was, I suppose the Amazon. And when I got here, it just really hit me because these rainforests, they’re hundreds of years old. And some of these trees are 50 metres high and they’re so precious; they’re the lungs of the world.

[00:09:23] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Absolutely. And they’re to be treasured.

[00:09:26] Charlotte: And it’s not just the gorillas. I mean, thank you to the gorillas because that’s why we protect the forests.

[00:09:30] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: And the other animals in there. The rangers told us that an antelope must have passed here, and they have chimps there as well.

[00:09:39] Charlotte: Did you hear the chimpanzees?

[00:09:41] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Yeah, the crying. Yes. I heard them briefly. That was very exciting. We saw the whole gorilla family, which was Habinyanja family, and we saw the silverback. There were six of them together. That was amazing. And they would just carry on eating and ignoring us.

[00:10:03] Charlotte: I saw the same family as you actually, Habinyanja. I saw the silverback, but he didn’t really move. But the highlight for me was seeing a baby gorilla high up in the trees, just hanging by one arm, watching us; just going round and round in a circle. You never know what you will see, do you?

[00:10:19] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Exactly. And you know they break trees and they told us so be careful “there’s two on the tree and two on this side, two on that side.”

[00:10:36] Charlotte: So when we’re in the forest now, we have to wear masks, don’t we?

[00:10:40] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: When we get to them, yes, but when you’re trekking, of course, you know you don’t have to wear them. Then the rangers say “we’re coming closer to them.” And then they tell us that now you should put in your masks. The whole time when we’re observing them, we have to have masks on.

[00:10:58] Charlotte: We’re here this weekend celebrating the 20th anniversary of Conservation Through Public Health. You’re the patron of CTPH, how did you come to get involved with the organisation?

[00:11:11] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: You know, I’ve known Gladys since she was a child, pretty much. Our families are very close, so she invited me to be the patron and I believe she also understood that I had interest in development work because at that time I had started my organisation, which is the Nnaabagareka Development Foundation, and I focus on children and youth and women in the areas of health and education. So, because of the work that I was doing at that time, I think she saw that I was the right person.

[00:11:52] Charlotte: And so your foundation, is that active in Buganda or across Uganda?

[00:11:57] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Initially, primarily within the central region in Uganda, but now it’s pretty much a national organisation.

[00:12:08] Charlotte: I came to Uganda some years ago working in conservation and that’s how I got to know Gladys through conservation and gorillas. But being here in Buhama and meeting the community yesterday, the gorillas are a very small part, in some ways, of what she’s done to develop the community through education and health and so on, and I was quite moved by some of the testimonies that we’ve had and you can really see that people are healthier and, dare I say happier, and make better life decisions.

[00:12:38] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Exactly.

[00:12:39] Charlotte: Thanks to the gorillas and thanks to Dr. Gladys connecting wildlife and humans and domestic animals as well. It’s really quite moving actually to come here and see the impacts.

[00:12:52] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Very much so. Gladys realised much earlier on that she would not be able to conserve the gorillas without taking care of the communities where these gorillas live. The gorillas and other wildlife, they are living within the parks where they are. You have people who live there, make their livelihoods there. And of course, the lives of the people were also affecting the wildlife as much as somehow people felt that they were being also affected by the animals, especially as they went on to sometimes to destroy the plants and even attacking them.

[00:13:33] Charlotte: It’s been a process, hasn’t it? It’s taken two or three decades for us to get to this point now where we’re sustainably developing these villages and these economies. I’ve been incredibly impressed by what I’ve seen here and the energy and the loyalty for all these initiatives.

[00:13:50] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: And you see also, I said I was here 18 years ago but throughout that time I’ve been seeing a big difference. When I came 18 years ago, there were very few places to stay. Now there are more, which shows that there the demand is there. Where we had a briefing, at that center (UWA), it wasn’t there. I remember we had it in a shelter of sorts before, there was a tent and we had the briefing outside as a matter of fact.

[00:14:19] So you can see there’s progress and of course, CTPH and other partners are involved. So for me, I really think that we need to invest more as a country in tourism and also agriculture because that’s where we can see a lot of growth and that’s where our people can get involved in a very productive way.

[00:14:43] Charlotte: The climate here is absolutely fantastic; it’s famously fantastic.

[00:14:46] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Yes. It’s just so serene, you know; it’s a good place to write a book, if you’re a writer.

[00:14:52] Charlotte: Well, you’ve written a book, haven’t you? I wanted to ask you about your book. Can you tell us the title of it?

[00:14:57] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: The Nnaabagareka an autobiography, actually Life, Passion and Duty: An autobiography.

Nnaabagareka is my title. The wife of the Kabaka is, you know, referred to as the Nnaabagareka, which really means to organise or to prepare, but I normally sum it up as to serve.

[00:15:22] Charlotte: I confess I haven’t read your book yet, but I need to. It will be particularly interesting after having met you.

[00:15:28] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: I’ll find out if we have a copy with us, I can give you, if we do.

[00:15:32] Charlotte: Oh, that would be amazing, I’d love to have a copy.

I really appreciated listening to you yesterday. I can sense your passion for the cause, and for the forest, and the gorillas, and of course the community. development as well.

We’re encouraging Ugandans to track the gorillas because it’s still quite unusual, isn’t it, for Ugandans to explore the country generally, but particularly to do something like this. How would you describe it? How would you sum up the experience for a Kampala person?

[00:16:07] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: It is life changing in many ways. When you’re in Kampala there are so many day to day struggles that you even forget Uganda is this beautiful. You even forget that you can go to a place and have fresh air. It’s so much of the struggles and when you see Kampala you don’t see the green that used to be there at some point. It’s a lot of construction, buildings, it’s mad. So the person who is in that area, I think it’s good to come out. Seeing Bwindi Impenetrable Forest would really take you back to say, “okay, I think we, we need to grow more trees.” We need trees; if the trees have been cut down, we can grow trees. We need to conserve.

[00:16:54] It’s important not just for tourism, but our health as individuals. And I think we need to create more awareness around. It’s important to do this conservation and you know, you go out to Bwindi and you really experience it, not just by seeing the gorillas, but by just being in a place where people are actually doing this conservation.

[00:17:20] And, you know, it benefits the country generally. As we were told yesterday, it’s a big honour, and tourism brings in quite a big chunk of money, you know, just the gorilla tracking itself. So we need to encourage the locals to come and see what we have as a country. And I think when you come here, your life does change in a way that you’ll appreciate nature more, not that there’s not nature where they are, but I think it is something that will be good to experience because I think we take it for granted and think: “why should I go to Bwindi Forest, this is everywhere anywhere. We have forest and we see monkeys. We see chimpanzees around in our homes. Why do I have to go 10 hours to see gorillas in the cold, you know?”

[00:18:07] But then Ugandans do go on vacation now, perhaps more so than they used to so it has to be promoted more as a tourist destination. Because they do go, they do go to Mweya, they go to Chobe and other places, so I think it needs to be promoted, we need more promotion around.

[00:18:27] Charlotte: I’m looking forward to seeing the impact that you being here will have on Ugandans over the next few months and years because you are a tourism ambassador by virtue of you having done this experience again.

I really noticed domestic tourism – we’ve all noticed it’s really picked up in Uganda in the last three to five years. When I first moved to Uganda, people thought that it was just the bazungu who went on safari and we were all a bit crazy, you know “why would you want to stare at these animals? We’ve spent our life running away from them. Why would you choose to spend your spare time staring at birds? You know, what’s all that about?” It’s really interesting to see things transform and to see millennials, the young Ugandans, who will go camping. They’ll do everything. They’re adventurous, they’ll go on safari.

[00:19:16] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Yes! They like adventure, don’t they? You know, we have such a large youthful population, so I think we need to do a bit more promotion around it, like you said. Also the fees could also maybe be a bit lower for us. I know it’s already low as it is, more so than the foreign tourists, but just to encourage more people to come.

[00:19:39] Charlotte: So it’s currently 250,000 shillings for Ugandans to track the gorillas, isn’t it? But of course, it’s a small part of the overall cost because you’ve got to get here.

[00:19:48] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: You have to get here, you have to find a place to stay.

[00:19:52] Charlotte: So you have all those other costs as well. It’s a very good experience but I hesitate to say discount it further because there are so many costs to cover, aren’t there?

[00:20:02] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: That’s also another thing. You’re absolutely right about that. There are costs involved.

[00:20:07] Charlotte: And we’ve seen how well trained the rangers are, the great information that they have, and the security that we have in the forest.

[00:20:14] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: True. They could do it just for maybe a year of promotion or a six month promotion package, something like that. You maybe have better ideas than I do but yes, I think they could do that.

[00:20:28] Charlotte: If you’re in your twenties, 250,000 Uganda shillings is a lot of money. I understand that.

[00:20:32] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Yes. Especially if they’re unemployed. If some of them are unemployed. I pray that it helps, has helped somehow.

[00:20:40] Charlotte: It’s fantastic. Your Royal Highness to have somebody of your status here, but also the fact that you’re a woman. I love the fact that Dr Gladys is a woman and a role model and such a positive person all round. It’s just reminded me that, of all the very interesting people here this weekend, most of them are men: the decision-makers and the strategic people are nearly all men. Role models in all areas of life are so important for young women.

[00:21:08] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:21:10] Charlotte: So I just want to thank you very much for your time.

I’ve got lots of other things I’d love to ask you all about: Kasubi Tombs and Wamala Tombs and Buganda tourism generally. I’m a huge fan of cultural and heritage tourism but anyway, thank you for your time.

[00:21:26] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: And I understand you’re in Uganda quite a bit, right?

[00:21:29] Charlotte: Yes, I’ve actually lived here nearly 15 years.

[00:21:32] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Fifteen! And so this is your home, Uganda?

[00:21:34] Charlotte: This is my home, yes. Lucky me! Uganda is my adopted home.

[00:21:37] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: So I should be able to catch up with you again soon.

[00:21:39] Charlotte: Thank you for making me feel so welcome. It’s an honour to live here and I came here on a two year contract and as soon as the plane door opened, it just felt so welcoming: the weather, the greetings, the birds in the trees.

[00:21:53] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Beautiful. That’s good to hear. So where do you stay?

[00:21:58] Charlotte: I stay in Kibale Forest most of the time. I lived in Kampala for nearly 10 years. (Well, you know, Nkima clan, you have to be in the forest!)

[00:22:08] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: I like that. That’s beautiful

[00:22:12] Charlotte: And one other thing, before we go, do you think the Kabaka might like to come and track the gorillas? Do you think you might be able to talk him into it? (You don’t have to answer that one!)

[00:22:22] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: But you know he walks a lot. He’s one of those people who can walk miles and miles and I think it is something that he would like to do. Whether or not he comes, that’s another question, but let’s see. But, you know, he likes walking, almost every day. And not just simple walks, but he can walk for hours. It’s the best exercise. It’ll be interesting for him.

[00:22:48] Charlotte: Thanks very much for your time.

[00:22:50] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Thank you.

[00:22:51] Charlotte: And I didn’t know how to greet you. Your Royal Highness, is that correct?

[00:22:56] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: That’s fine. Thank you.

[00:22:59] And please send my greetings to the Kabaka if that’s appropriate. I’m fascinated by culture, so it’s been interesting to learn a little bit about it through my Baganda friends.

[00:23:11] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: And you know some Luganda?

[00:23:16] Charlotte: Mpola mpola. 

[00:23:20] Queen Sylvia Nagginda: Thank you, thank you so much.

End of conversation 

[00:23:39] Charlotte: Imagine a world where people, gorillas and the environment co exist harmoniously. That’s the vision of Conservation Through Public Health, a Ugandan NGO that emerged from a critical moment in 1996 when a scabies outbreak (a contagious skin condition) that threatened the mountain gorillas in Bwindi Impenetrable Forest.

[00:24:03] The source of the outbreak was traced back to impoverished communities on the outskirts of the park and this highlighted the intricate link between human and wildlife health. Of course it’s something that we talk about a lot now with COVID and the spread of zoonotic diseases (diseases that spread between wildlife, humans and livestock).

[00:24:29] Led by Dr. Gladys Kalema Zikusoka, Uganda’s first dedicated wildlife vet, Conservation through public health was born to bridge the gap between the survival of mountain gorillas and the health and well-being of marginalized communities.

[00:24:47] Top tip if you are visiting Uganda!

Why not buy a packet of Gorilla Conservation Coffee as well as a copy of Dr. Gladys book called “Walking with Gorillas”. It’s great coffee and it directly supports farmers and this incentivises them to keep out of the forest and not set snares because when they’re in the forest they can accidentally spread disease as well. We know human diseases can kill great apes such as gorillas or chimps because we are so alike.

[00:25:23] If you enjoyed my conversation with the Nnaabagareka, check out the show notes where you’ll find links to:

Conservation Through Public Health,

Gorilla Conservation Coffee,

The Nnaabagareka Foundation.

[00:25:36] I know that a lot of people listening will be intrigued to learn more about mountain gorillas and how to see them in Uganda so have a look at the show notes where you’ll find links to my blog, Diary of a Muzungu, and my Travel Directory. I’ve been writing my blog for over 15 years and there is tons of travel advice there, as well as contacts for tour operators and lodges and experts who can help you organise a trip.

[00:26:03] Next up on the East Africa Travel Podcast: in episode four, I will be talking to Rob Walker who is a British TV commentator and he has been officially named as Uganda’s Goodwill Sports Tourism Ambassador. He is bursting with enthusiasm about Uganda, he absolutely loves it here!

[00:26:26] Thanks for listening. See you next time!

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